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MM UT Governor Problems (LONG)

 
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skycarp2002



Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Kanab, UT USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:28 pm    Post subject: MM UT Governor Problems (LONG) Reply with quote

I am restoring a 1945 MM UT. The tractor was abandoned for 8 years and was not operational with I bought it. I am renewing everything in the engine.

I have had the governor checked and restored by Matt Gall at Motec Engineering and Restoration. I am having trouble with the operation of the governor now that I have the engine running. Using Mattís written instructions I have adjusted the linkage correctly so it works freely.

With the engine not running, I checked and adjusted the governor-to-carburetor linkage with the hand throttle at full throttle, and everything was working right. The spring inside the governor was holding the throttle linkage on the carburetor full open as it is supposed to.

Here is my problem.

When I start the engine and throttle up, I can only get about 1/3 engine speed. If I move the governor-to-carburetor linkage by hand I can get full throttle with hand force, but there is tension pulling against my hand and the linkage would return to a lower speed, to about 1/3 full speed when I release my hand from the linkage. The higher I rev the engine by hand the more tension is exerted against my hand by the governor. It is obvious to me that energy from the thrust of the internal weights is more than the spring tension inside the governor can overcome. Thus, the engine will idle down to a lower idle until the spring tension inside the governor equals the thrust of the weights. When I shut off the engine while the hand throttle lever is set at full speed, the carburetor linkage is thrown to full speed once the engine shuts down.

I did a double check of the issues as I see them.

a. with the governor-to-carburetor linkage adjusted according to Mattís written instructions and working freely by hand;
b. with the high speed adjustment screw on the governor all the way out so as to allow the throttle arm on the governor to go all the way open;
c. with the hand throttle all the way forward against itís stop;
d. which brings the throttle linkage lever on the governor all the way back against itís stop;
e. I have full throttle at the carburetor;
f. when I start the engine I can only get about 1/3 engine speed.

I had this problem with the first governor Matt worked over for me, so I sent it back and he sent me another governor. The second governor has the same issues as the first governor he worked on.

Is it possible that the spring inside the governor is weak and thus the revolving weights are overriding it?

Is there an internal adjustment on the amount of tension the governor spring exerts against the effects of inertia of the spinning weights?

Thanks for any suggestions on this problem.

Dean
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1959 MM G-VI Propane original, 1945 MM UT (under restoration)

Farmall SC restored, Oliver S 88 diesel restored pulling tractor, Ford 851 restored, Ford 8 N restored, Farmall SC original, Farmall C original.
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MMDEL



Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Franklin Grove, Ill.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: MM gov Reply with quote

A couple of things might be a little off. When you adjust the carb to gov rod, don't rely on the trottle to hold it up. Put the throttle lever about half way. Then use your hands to hold the long gov arm all the way up and the carb wide open. Then bend rod to fit. When you do this be sure the position of everything is the same when you get the rod home in the hole. Because of the arce of the rod, it may line up as it enters the hole but when it is fuilly home so you can put the cotter pin in, it may change the throttle shaft position. If it does you have to adjust to compensate for this.
With the tractor off. The throttle lever should open the carb fully open long before the the throttle hits the stop. Will the throttle bring the short gov arm against the high speed screw stop in the gov? If not, you may have to shorten the rod from throttle lever to gov. (But this should not be)
Did you change the manifold or the heads? Different heighths of heads or going to a M5 manifold makes it a whole new ball game.
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Rich'sToys



Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Janesville, MN

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you've changed the manifold, there's a good chance that the carb. is closer to the governor than it was before. If so, you will need to shorten the linkage rod accordingly. The easiest way to do this is to increase the bend that is already in this rod till you get the distance you need.
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skycarp2002



Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Kanab, UT USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject: Very Frustrating Reply with quote

MMDEL and Rich,

Everything is to specifications relating to the linkage. No binding, not too long, not too short, free movement when engine is shut off. When I fire it up and increase the throttle, the governor shuts down the carburetor to just a few RPM's above idle. I can increase the RPM by hand on the linkage but I feel increasing resistance as the RPM's increase and when I release the linkage the engine goes back to idle or just above, while the hand throttle is in the full on position.

On suggestion from Motec, I removed spark plug wires one at a time to simulate a load on the engine, with hopes that the governor would increase the engine speed to compensate. This did not happen and finally with only one spark plug wire on a plug the tractor continued to run at idle, very rough I might add. lol

I feel the weights on the governor shaft are too heavy for the spring to overcome, and throw the governor back to slow it down. I am considering finding a replacement governor to do a comparison. Do either of you have a UT governor that I could try out?

Motec rebuilt this governor and Matt stated that he had turned down the weights a little to compensate any weakness in the spring that had developed over time. I am wondering if I might improve upon that by turning them down more, thus removing more weight from them.

Thanks for any suggestions from here.

Dean
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1959 MM G-VI Propane original, 1945 MM UT (under restoration)

Farmall SC restored, Oliver S 88 diesel restored pulling tractor, Ford 851 restored, Ford 8 N restored, Farmall SC original, Farmall C original.
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MMDEL



Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Franklin Grove, Ill.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:43 am    Post subject: MM Gov Reply with quote

With everything un hooked from the Gov. Push the throttle arm foward as far as it will go. And the carb arm down as far as it will go. Then move the trottle arm slowly to the rear. The carb arm should almost immediatly start to rise with the pressure of the spring. If not I suspect one of the shafts in the gov does not have the hole drilled in the right place. and it is not syncronized properly. Did you have this problem before you overhauled the Gov or do you know?
I do have extra Governors.
MMDEL


Last edited by MMDEL on Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Motec



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Tipton IN

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me tell what has been done from my end.
I rebuilt the first governor and work with Dean to make sure the linkage is correct. It still didn't work like he wanted it to, so I rebuilt and sent him another governor. I tested the second governor on a running tractor before I sent it and it worked perfect.
He sent me the first governor back and I tested it on a running tractor and it worked perfect.
I have talked to Dean about the linkage and found that rod from the hand throttle to the governor was to short. After fixing that he said that it still doesn't work right.
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1 used MM oil filter.
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MMDEL



Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Franklin Grove, Ill.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject: MM Gov Reply with quote

This does not add up! Dean do you have any idea if this unit ever worked before you took it apart? Did somebody change the carb. and it does not have the right throttle shaft in it?
I wish I had it here in the shop. I love a challenge.
MMDEL
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skycarp2002



Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Kanab, UT USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:45 pm    Post subject: I might bring it! Reply with quote

Matt,

I accept your reply and do not have problem with you. I still have a problem with my governor though.

Dell,

I might bring it over there if I can't get this thing working soon.

The tractor sat for 8 years in the weather, and was complete, but almost destroyed internally by the weather. The engine was never ran by me before I went to work on it. As far as I know the carburetor is original. I have pictures of the right side of the engine before I started to tear it down. It is back together in the same way as it was in the before picture.

I picked up a used governor from a parts tractor today. Tomorrow I will clean it up and install it on the tractor.

Wish me luck.

Dean
_________________
1959 MM G-VI Propane original, 1945 MM UT (under restoration)

Farmall SC restored, Oliver S 88 diesel restored pulling tractor, Ford 851 restored, Ford 8 N restored, Farmall SC original, Farmall C original.
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G Brown



Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Melita MB

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject: U Governor Reply with quote

From what I have read appears problem not be be governor but some other variable. Is there something in the cavity where the governor is mounted causing it to jam. Gasket, bolt too long anybody's guess?
What I would do is pull of manifold,carb,governor ,linkage form working U and do a quick transplant. If this resolves the problem start working backwards replacing component by component until problem resolved. 9 times out of 10 the problem won't be in area you are thinking it is.
I've been solving electronic problems for over 30 years and know how FRUSTRATING issues can get!
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39 R Cab,3 RTS,40 RTN,RTU,2-RTE,40,44,45, ZTS,,3-ZAS, 51 ZAE,48 ZTE,2-ZTU,2-39,2-40,41 47,48,49,51,52 UTS, 2-UTSD,2-UTSD Specials, 1958 UTSD-M,UTE,UTC,UTU,1350 Cockshutt,2270 White, 40GTS,44GTA,4 KTA's, 30 KT,61- 5 star,2-670,2-5 star .3 -M5's,A4T1400
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skycarp2002



Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Kanab, UT USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Yahoo, Problem Solved Reply with quote

I took a governor from a MM UT donor tractor that is a parts tractor a friend has.

I cleaned up the outside of the donor, installed it on the tractor, hooked up the linkage, started the tractor, and after warm-up, throttled up and it worked as intended. I then removed a spark plug wire and it throttled up some more, I removed a second spark plug and it throttled up some more. Each time I removed a spark plug the tractor increased throttle as it should have.

I took the donor off and reinstalled the reconditioned governor and it did not work as intended. I think I have a keeper now, the donor governor.

What was wrong with the two governors sent to me by the vendor, I do not know. I wish I did. I will use the donor on the tractor and keep the reconditioned governor for parts.
_________________
1959 MM G-VI Propane original, 1945 MM UT (under restoration)

Farmall SC restored, Oliver S 88 diesel restored pulling tractor, Ford 851 restored, Ford 8 N restored, Farmall SC original, Farmall C original.
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